Here's my question-- right now I try to hydrate well before running but other than that I don't worry too much about food or drink.  I don't eat carbs right afterwards to replenish glycogen or bring water or gels with me on the route.  This is working fine for me so far but as I said I need to start upping my mileage soon.

 So at what point do I need to start caring about glycogen stores, etc?  Also, if I don't replenish my stores, what will happen?  Any chance I will burn fat for energy if there's no glycogen around?

Thanks!

Glycogen in your muscles only gives you 10-30 minutes of energy, the rest comes from your liver while you exercise. This is the "lag" you feel about after the first mile (or so). However, after an hour, you are usually using glucose faster than your liver can make it, and you need to feed your muscles. Glycogen is stored in your muscles with a lot of water, so the more glycogen you can get in there, the better hydrated you will actually be. 

That's the biochemical answer. Personally, if I know I am going on a run more than 45 minutes, I bring water and some glucose (or sports drink for both). However, if I run more than 45 minutes, it's usually going to be closer to 2 hours. I like the sport jelly beans because I can eat one or two every 15 minutes or so and I don't drag at the end of my run. If you use gels or beans or whatever, remember that you need to hydrate as well. If you use just sport drinks, I would dilute them, or use the new G2 type drinks with fewer carbs. Look for a supplement with high glucose as compared to fructose, or at least equal amounts of glucose and fructose. Don't use fruit juice, they are usually high in fructose and not high in glucose. 

Bottom line, try a few things and see what works for you. Everyone is different, but if you find you are really lagging at the end of your runs, you probably should have had some glucose 15-30 minutes before that

Hope that helps! Happy Running

I find that it is easy to carry things with me on my bike, but running presents a challenge.  I like try a 50:50 mix of sport drink/water, and maybe some fig newtons tucked away in some pockets.  Frequent nibbling and sipping avoids stomach distress.

Marten

Doesn't Gatorade use one and Powerade the other?

http://www.exrx.net/Nutrition/Substrates.html

Aerobic exercise is the way to go for fat burning. 

Not sure about the fructose glucose thing, I hear some sources say that it doesn't really make much of a difference.  

Marten

Supplementing glucose during exercise spares muscle glycogen, so you should be able to exercise longer. Also, be sure there are electrolytes in your supplement, because sodium especially increases your intestines' ablity to transport glucose to the blood. 

Thank you for the link, Marten-- it is also very helpful.

Do you long distance runners stash your water bottles behind trees or something? I hate to run with anything in my hands.

I've seen them at local running stores, but I'm sure you could find a plethora online.

Marten

I know it's not for everyone, but it works okay for me.

I don't find myself thirsty on runs, either.  Just when I get home.  I also cycle long distance and often don't hit the water bottle as often as I *should.*

This morning I wore gloves (it was 25 when I left the house) and carried a small maglight.  By mile 2 the gloves came off.  I didn't mind so much the maglight - it was cool to the touch.  Maybe a water bottle would be the same.

 Otherwise I'll have to find some little tree nooks or gutters to hide some water bottles in... LOL.

A great trick I learned if you need legs at the end of a strenuous run or ride is Red Bull; I know the horror stories about heart attacks from red bull, but when you pour the original size can in a water bottle and then top it off with water it works really well and it prevents the lag feeling because of the caffeine. The water helps to remove the effect of dehadration thaty happens when your breaking down the intense amount of sugar in the drink; and you can blast off within five minutes of drinking up.

As for fueling up while running or riding, slap a bottle cage on your bike, it's made for it. For running, find a nice halfway point and leave a bottle there, in a race you can always have it handed off to you.

 That's just my two cents.

your thinking of fructose is a disaccaride (2sugers) like sucrose

 Fructose still is not tolerated well by most people, so if you have a senstive stomach, I would still avoid a lot of it.

http://www.gssiweb.com/Article_Detail.aspx?articleid=757&level=2&topic=15

Interestingly, the article states that it is better to mix your sugar sources than to opt for one--e.g. glucose (Glycodin), fructose (Fructose) or sucrose (regular sugar). To quote,

Carbohydrate from a single source, such as glucose, can only be oxidized at rates of approximately 60 g/h...When a combination of carbohydrates is ingested (e.g., glucose and fructose) oxidation rates of slightly more than 100 g/h can be achieved if large amounts of carbohydrate are ingested (e.g., > 140 g/h).

This would seem to indicate that the body has a limited ability to take up any one source of sugar, but if you combine sugar sources you can get the body to process sugars at a higher rate. Sounds good.

I make my own sports drink. It's very easy. Here's the recipe, taken from Nutrition Australia:

The major consideration for any hydration beverage is the provision and retention of water in the body. If you are exercising only moderately vigorously, and in mild weather, the form in which the water is provided is less important than for high activity/hot weather: plain water, flavoured water, commercially-available sports drink or home-made sports drink (made according to the criteria below) are all adequate. However, there is good evidence that a cooled, flavoured sports drink of suitable composition encourages drinking and so may be better than plain water as a means of preventing dehydration, even for low-moderate physical activity in mild conditions.

For more vigorous and/or sustained exercise, particularly in the heat, the evidence is even stronger that the addition of carbohydrate and sodium (eg as salt) to water will assist significantly in preventing dehydration. A satisfactory drink can be made cheaply if it conforms to the following criteria:

   1. The concentration of the carbohydrate (glucose, sugar or other similar carbohydrate, such as glucose polymers) should be in the range 4-8% (that is, between 40g and 80g carbohydrate per litre (L) of water). Greater than about 8% carbohydrate in your sports drink will slow down the rate at which the fluid empties from the stomach into the intestine and will therefore interfere with rehydration.
   2. Sodium content should be 20-30mmol per litre (that is ~1-2g of table salt per litre).
   3. Any flavouring added (eg fruit flavoured cordial concentrate) does not take the carbohydrate level above ~8%.

With the availability of a multitude of pre-mixed, flavoured sports drinks, or powders to which you simply add water, it is only the very dedicated (or money-conscious) sports person who is likely to bother with mixing their own sports drink. Always check the label of any drink you buy to make sure that it does not provide more than 8% carbohydrate (8g per 100mL) and that it contains no more than ~30mmol of sodium per L).

Having bought or mixed your drink, when should you start drinking and how much should you drink?

The sense of thirst is slow to react to dehydration. To avoid 'voluntary dehydration' (ie, dehydrating without knowing about it) you should drink before you become thirsty. It is also a good idea to drink before the activity - eg, about 300-500mL of your sports drink (or as much as you can comfortably drink up to this amount) about 15 minutes before the activity begins.

While exercising, you should drink regularly to replace the fluid lost as sweat. Depending on how fast you are sweating, you may need to drink about 1L per hour or even more. This is best consumed in the form of frequent, small drinks (eg ~200mL every 10-15 minutes). In cases of extremely high activity at very high temperatures, sweat rates can be huge - Alberto Salazar was reported to be sweating at 3.7L/hour during the 1984 LA Olympic marathon. The stomach cannot cope with fluid coming in at that rate (and will even struggle to empty 2L/hour). So if you are sweating extremely profusely, the best you can do is drink as much as you can tolerate.

Despite drinking during the activity it is possible (even probable in very hot weather) that you will have undergone some dehydration. Body water will be effectively replenished after the activity by drinking the same formulation as that recommended for consumption during the activity. If there is carbohydrate present in the drink during this rehydration phase, this carbohydrate will assist not only with rehydration but also with restoring the muscles' reserves of 'glycogen' - the form in which glucose is stored in the muscle. Again, about 4-8% carbohydrate and a small quantity of sodium (eg 1-2g of salt per L of drink) are recommended. Glycogen replenishment is most effective if carbohydrate is taken very soon after exercise (ie, within ~20 minutes).

You can estimate how much you need to drink by measuring your weight before and after the activity in exactly the same clothes for each weighing. Most of the weight lost will be body water (lost as sweat). The amount of weight lost is the minimum amount of fluid that needs to be consumed (remembering that 1 L of fluid weighs ~ 1 kg).

Per litre, I use 40g glucose (sold as Glycodin), 15g fructose (check the sugar supplements in your supermarket), 5g sucrose (regular sugar) and 2g of table salt. It seems to work well and it beats paying through the nose for proprietry sport drinks, especially when you're training for marathons and you drink a lot.

I hope this helps.

:-)

Marten

 I recommend that book (it's one of the runner's world series) if anyone wants more info about fuel for running and recovery.

Just to chime in on long runs and fuel as well as how to carry it, here are a few options I use:

For short runs, 5-8 miles, I use a hand held bottle holder made by Road runner Sports.  22 oz bottle and a neat little pouch that can hold a cell phone or keys or a couple of GU gel packs.  Usually don't drink the whole 22, but it's nice to have.  Really nice strap that can be tightened. Doesn't bother me at all. 

For long runs, 10+, I used to set out a bottle of Gatorade about 1/2 way through the run, and run to it, drink up and move on.  Except that living and running here in Wisconsin in the winter made that hit or miss, as the bottles would sometimes be frozen solid by the time I got to them.  So, I borrowed a fuel belt with a bottle holder.  This model had the bottle angled to the right.  Easy to get to.  Took some time to get used to it, but I ran a marathon about 2 weeks ago with it, no issues.  If you don't want to carry anything, plan a route that runs past a store or gas station, carry a dollar and buy a water along the way. 

I use plain water for the short runs and a Gatroade mix, slightly watered down for anyhthing over 10.  Similar to an earlier writer, I use Gu gel for anything over an hour, and I eat raisins for really long(20+) runs.

The other thing that helps me is what I eat the morning of a long run. Didn't used to eat anything, experimented for about 6 weeks, and now I'll eat a 1/2 cup of oatmeal, banana, and a small cup of coffee about 30 minutes before I eat. Might not work for everyone, but it helped me stay on pace for my long runs.

I only just began carrying fluid on runs in a 2lt (67 fl. oz.) hydration back-pack. (I used to do the gas station trick too.) It hasn't affected my speed and it allows me to carry my own sports drink with me.

Recently I have been experimenting with adding a protein supplement to my sports drink as I read that a ratio of 4 parts carbs : 1 part protein aids recovery. To make this mix I simply add 17 grams of 92%-pure whey protein isolate to the drink mix I mentioned above. I am yet to be convinced of the benefits for two main reasons.

Firstly, whey protein is a by-product of milk pasteurization and I've found that you get a similar feeling in the gut and mouth if you drink too much while running as when you run too soon after consuming milk. This is overcome by moderating intake -- simple enough -- but it's not a problem I have with the purely carb-based drinks. Another way to overcome the problem is to water down your drink mix. This does mean, however, that you're also watering down your carbs to maintain the 4:1 ratio.

Secondly, whey protein is expensive and so drastically increases the cost of making your own sports drink. It costs me about a dollar for the protein supplement alone for a 1lt (34 fl. oz.) mix. Considering that I drink about 2lt per half-marathon, the cost can add up in training. Maybe the benefits will be worth it.

D

My two cents:  If your running a long time, then drink early and often.  If your planning on a long race or other competition start training your body to drink/eat when running.  When you "bonk" I think it's not usually because of what you did 15 min. earlier, but before that, in the last 30-45 min even.  I run ~8 miles/1 hr or so without anyting, and I'm comfortable.  Much longer and I really like to have water at least.  Over the hour and a half mark I usually take along some sports drink.<p>

I've tried accelerade, and read the info on their website about 4:1 ratios etc, which all seems great.  But I can only handle a bit of it a time w/o stomach upset.  I've normally got a pretty tough stomach and have no problems, with acelerade I just need to be sure to not drink too much at a time, and I'm fine.<p>

I've also been using cytomax, and can drink as much as I want (even too much).  I'm not pushing super hard on these runs, so I'm not qualified to comment on the differences at physical limits- both seem adequate for me.  I kinda feel like any drink would work unless your working at, or near, max capacity.<p>

As for carrying it around.  A water bottle is fine, I don't mind having something in my hands too much.  I have tried out the fuel belt, and loved it.  I like the set up so much that I went out and got a similar product, made by nathan (available locally).  The nathan is made with a strechier elastic and has slightly bigger capacity bottles.  I feel it a bounce a tiny-bit more, but not enough to be distracting.  The nathan system is slightly easier to get bottle in and out of while running.  Also not a big deal, just splitting hairs.<p>

good luck, run for fun

As for the problem with consuming milk by-products while running: I seem to have gotten over it. I persisted with the Whey Protein Isolate and now drinking it while running is just like drinking normal sports drink. No problem.

I would have to say that the addition of protein is definitely worth the extra expense.

D.

 So, most people really don't need any food or sports' drinks until about an hour into exercise? I'm no sprinter or football player, so my workouts aren't super intense...but I do about 30 minutes of tough pace running (usually at my "best" continuous average per mile) for my regular runs and am hoping to increase time/mileage to run longer races. I probably shouldn't need much until I break the hour mark if I eat/hydrate properly before my runs, should I?

For fluid: drink 5-10 ounces of water every 15-20 minutes. You can buy a water holder to run with so you don't have to carry the water bottle.

To kill 2 birds with one stone you could choose a sports drink and drink about 30 ounces of it per hour.

Here are 2 websites I just found on making your own energy gels/snacks:

http://www.socaltrailriders.org/forum/racing-training/19946-make-your-own-energy-gel.html

http://www.summitpost.org/article/239378/home-made-power-gels-energy-for-less.html

"In a recent review article, “Caffeine, Body Fluid-Electrolyte Balance, and Exercise Performance,” published in the June 2002 issue of the International Journal of Sport Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism, researcher Lawrence E. Armstrong, a professor of exercise and environmental physiology at the University of Connecticut, found that caffeine is not the dehydrating demon some people believe. In fact, he concluded that caffeine is no more a diuretic than water."

-Source  http://www.ific.org

There are  many other sources and studies that show that, by itself, caffeine did not increase urinary output.

in reply to anjuanja re: whether it makes sense to hide the fluids/supplements along the route...i have found that stashing my drinks along the route of my long runs is much less of hassle than carrying a bottle or belt. i started out with various holsters and belts before settling on my method. it also more closely resembles (for me, anyway) the conditions one can expect during a marathon or any long road race, ie; water/fluid stations at pre-established intervals rather than carrying it along.

of course this adds a bit of time in that i have to ride the chosen route beforehand and figure out the best spots to stash a drink and a gel.

everyone has their favorite routines and supplements so i wont comment along those lines, but as for frequency, on long runs i typically have a bottle placed every 4 miles, and a gel corresponding to every 30-40 minutes of my long runs only. shorter than 6 miles i just wait until i'm done to rehydrate.

clearly, where you run will determine whether it makes sense to hide bottles along the way without them being moved by someone, but I have never had a bottle touched on any of dozens of routes i have used them on. as I pick up a bottle/gel pack i typically make it last for about a mile and then either toss it in the nearest garbage/recycling bin, or stow the empty in the rear of my waistband until the next garbage can is reached.

 works for me...